Let's Fix It: Attention Tom
Follow up article to reviews for prose.44 total reviews
Comment from LIJ Red
I assume this is written well. I got lost in the reading
for there is a problem with getting prose reviewed. I just figured my prose was crappy-it can't be too long if it's good, right? Oddly enough-wrong.
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I assume this is written well. I got lost in the reading
for there is a problem with getting prose reviewed. I just figured my prose was crappy-it can't be too long if it's good, right? Oddly enough-wrong.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from tfawcus
Some interesting ideas here, Mikey. I seldom review prose, just for the very reasons you state. It takes considerable time to give considered feedback. It costs if a writer gets this done by a professional editor so why should we do it virtually for free unless on a reciprocal basis?
I think it would help the writer to get the right kind of feedback if he or she states whether proofreading, line editing or substantive editing is sought.
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Some interesting ideas here, Mikey. I seldom review prose, just for the very reasons you state. It takes considerable time to give considered feedback. It costs if a writer gets this done by a professional editor so why should we do it virtually for free unless on a reciprocal basis?
I think it would help the writer to get the right kind of feedback if he or she states whether proofreading, line editing or substantive editing is sought.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Sankey
Well done old mate. Some really good ideas brought out here. I will have to look for the Forum. I agree about the rewards for reading large tomes compared to only a couple of lines of a poem. I would be in it too. Tom is a good bloke and has given us a great wen site here but I trust he will listen to reason and go along with some suggestions from his employers. Keep the ideas coming mate!
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Well done old mate. Some really good ideas brought out here. I will have to look for the Forum. I agree about the rewards for reading large tomes compared to only a couple of lines of a poem. I would be in it too. Tom is a good bloke and has given us a great wen site here but I trust he will listen to reason and go along with some suggestions from his employers. Keep the ideas coming mate!
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from robyn corum
Dear Friend,
First off I'd like to say hello! I don't think I've come across your writing before -- I've been off-site for a while -- so it's a pleasure to meet you! Next, I wanted to let you know I am rating this piece primarily for technical quality and not content. I didn't necessarily agree with (or understand) all the suggestions you mentioned in the first portion of your essay, but I did find the execution to be surprisingly well done and your style open, friendly and exceptionally readable.
As an aside, I was intrigued by the portion regarding the section of FS devoted to reviewing excellence. I will try to get to the Forums to follow the thread. It will be interesting to see what develops. As far as the other is concerned, I hate to consider making things too much more complicated for new devotees...? There must be some simple way to accomplish the same thing. Smart thinkers will discover a way, I'm sure!
Thanks for sharing and I look forward to more of your work.
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Dear Friend,
First off I'd like to say hello! I don't think I've come across your writing before -- I've been off-site for a while -- so it's a pleasure to meet you! Next, I wanted to let you know I am rating this piece primarily for technical quality and not content. I didn't necessarily agree with (or understand) all the suggestions you mentioned in the first portion of your essay, but I did find the execution to be surprisingly well done and your style open, friendly and exceptionally readable.
As an aside, I was intrigued by the portion regarding the section of FS devoted to reviewing excellence. I will try to get to the Forums to follow the thread. It will be interesting to see what develops. As far as the other is concerned, I hate to consider making things too much more complicated for new devotees...? There must be some simple way to accomplish the same thing. Smart thinkers will discover a way, I'm sure!
Thanks for sharing and I look forward to more of your work.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Sasha
You make some very good point in this and I like most of the suggestions. Personally, I stay out of the forums because I have found them to not be as productive as intended. Many complain about other authors, criticize them, and occasionally insult them. I just don't like being a part of the forums. I wish you all the best and hope you get a good result and hopefully some changes will result.
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You make some very good point in this and I like most of the suggestions. Personally, I stay out of the forums because I have found them to not be as productive as intended. Many complain about other authors, criticize them, and occasionally insult them. I just don't like being a part of the forums. I wish you all the best and hope you get a good result and hopefully some changes will result.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from GeorgieBoy
I myself, appreciate reviewers comments and suggestions that improve my writing. There is a reviewer or two that takes some time to offer changes to the prose. Some short reviews are o.k. if they state what it is they especially liked and why.
I agree, that reviewers for prose should be reward more than for poems, however, as a prose writer, I tend to struggle with my reviews for poems as I don't feel really qualified, other to say it 'flowed well' or I enjoyed the concept.
I disagree with the statement that fanstory should be limited to short stories and prose, poems, if someone is interested in the novel, they will follow it. I do think, though that some system that makes it easier to follow novels could be put into place.
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I myself, appreciate reviewers comments and suggestions that improve my writing. There is a reviewer or two that takes some time to offer changes to the prose. Some short reviews are o.k. if they state what it is they especially liked and why.
I agree, that reviewers for prose should be reward more than for poems, however, as a prose writer, I tend to struggle with my reviews for poems as I don't feel really qualified, other to say it 'flowed well' or I enjoyed the concept.
I disagree with the statement that fanstory should be limited to short stories and prose, poems, if someone is interested in the novel, they will follow it. I do think, though that some system that makes it easier to follow novels could be put into place.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from SLHarper
Wow, Mikey! First of all, I'd really like to thank you for continuing the discussion regarding "fixing" the issues within our writers' community with which we are not satisfied. I also believe that as paying, contributing members, we have a right to speak out and strive to effect improvements on behalf of everyone. As far as the costs and logistics are concerned, I'm relatively clueless, but I'd be happy to let the more business-minded folks hash out those figures.
My number one complaint about "reviewing standards" on this site, as you know, has been the phenomenon of the fly-by "wham, bam, thank you for $1.22, even though I didn't read your post or put any effort into responding to it," which you so very aptly addressed in your essay as follows:
"Most of us give a proper effort when we review. The ones that do not should be singled out and stopped."
As the whole system currently stands, it lends itself to that less-than-stellar practice, which can be demoralizing and hurtful to other writers, especially when they make a point to be conscientious about the effort they put forth on behalf of others' posts and they work damned hard on crafting their own work, only to have a bunch of people take advantage when they spend money to promote their work, or ignore them off the planet when they don't. Truthfully, I don't care if I only receive 6 or 8 quality reviews on a poem, regardless of how much "incentive" I offer by promoting. But this is how it invariably goes: if I promote a poem, a bunch of pariahs who otherwise would not bother with any kind of response at all come at me with the two-lined "fake" feedback as if they're doing me a favor (when it is abundantly obvious that they are blowing through just to collect the member cents) -- when truly, all I had wanted was to offer some small "reward" for those few whom I know I can count on for investing their energy in a long and/or complex piece (and also in the hope that the extra visibility might help connect me with more like-minded others out there). But lately, it seems that promoting of my work in any amount always backfires for me. It feels like feeding my heart and soul to the wolves!
In Brooke's response to your essay, she reiterates the same message about "reviewing quality" that she argued recently in another discussion -- basically, that it would be impossible to monitor reviewing practices even though FanStory philosophically frowns upon "cut and paste" reviews, because it is cost-prohibitive to hire an individual or even a committee to enforce the standards it stipulates. Blah, blah, blah... Okay, this is certainly true to an extent, but what about, say, having a committee monitor the reviews of the top 30 or 40 ranked reviewers? The reason I put this idea forward, is because those who are the highest ranked reviewers are often the ones who are perpetrating the "fly-by." They are likewise often top-ranked authors, which would only lead me to presume that they are capable of exercising a rudimentary level of cognition and stringing together a series of words into sentences... Ergo -- it is unacceptable and blatantly exploitative behavior on the parts of those individuals to be getting away with this "game" at the expense of others. Brooke, our number one ranked reviewer and poet, who I'm sure works her tail off to maintain those rankings, has the whole reviewing thing down to a science. She packs a lot of detailed, specific feedback into a small package. No, she does not write dissertations on others' work, but she succinctly and thoroughly covers all the "bases," which I'm sure she is capable of achieving relatively quickly (I can't do that and don't necessarily care to -- but I don't have a problem with her obvious tenacity and skill... More power to her!). Most importantly, though, when we receive a review from Brooke, it is clear that she has actually read our work and that she is making an attempt to offer constructive feedback that writers can potentially employ to improve their writing. Brooke writes reviews. She deserves the "recognition" the site affords her for doing so, but other "top-ranked reviewers" don't write reviews, even though logic would dictate that they'd be capable of doing so if they gave a crap, all money and accolades aside. It doesn't take a genius to tell the difference. Hell, I'm sure that I could evaluate 100 "reviews" written by the top 30 ranked reviewers in a given day and be able to evaluate whether or not they adhere to the site's stipulated standards in about the same amount of time that it usually takes me to write one "review" (granted, mine are often dissertations, and I don't expect anyone else to do what I do!). If FanStory would be willing to appoint a "quality control" committee to monitor the the top-ranked reviewers' practices, I'd bet that enough people would be willing to VOLUNTEER their time on a limited and/or rotating basis in order to make it a viable way to enforce the site's reviewing guidelines...? At least, it could make a dent in the problem and perhaps encourage reviewers, in general, to consider accountability to be a factor (because money as the sole incentive does not serve this purpose).
Finally, I want to respond to your point about prose writing not ever gaining as much exposure or receiving as much feedback as poetry. I do agree with this summation. It is true that the 5-7-5s promoted to the front page receive much, much more feedback than any 1500 word or more prose piece, and (being mostly a poet, myself) I can only imagine that receiving a percentage of "fly-by" responses for 2000 word stories might feel even worse to those authors than it does when it happens to me. As you know, I don't review a lot of prose on this site -- not necessarily because it "takes longer" (truly READING a poem, for instance, sometimes takes me several days), but because I choose to give my full attention to everything I do read and I've decided to concentrate on reviewing the same genre I most often write in. That being said, I will NEVER drop a "fly-by" on any writer or poet only to "get" the member dollars. I won't review a haiku just because it is promoted to the home page. If I don't have anything constructive to say about a given post, I don't review it, regardless of how much it pays. I wonder if the main problem for prose writers is not so much that relatively fewer people read prose (and, I suspect, the same principle applies to poets who write more complex pieces than minimalist forms that are more prolific on FS...), but rather that it is relatively more obvious (and more disheartening!) when they receive the royal "fly-by" treatment? I still think that the root of the problem as a whole is that the current "incentive" system lends itself to abuse. It may be a profitable "business model," but, regardless, the owners/admins ("Tom") should take pains to ensure that this business can truly be deemed "reputable" in the public eye (or at least not make pretenses about being a reputable writing site if upholding that reputation is not a primary goal of this business!).
Perhaps, by engaging in forum/profile discussions and "speaking out" against unjust practices, as it is our right and prerogative to do, while continuing to exemplify the practices that we would promote, our influence will eventually serve to effect some change? It is certainly worth it to continue to try, even when others don't agree or would shut our efforts down. Your passionate voice and your willingness to take on a proactive leadership role are nothing short of inspiring, Mikey Cahill. Thank you!
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Wow, Mikey! First of all, I'd really like to thank you for continuing the discussion regarding "fixing" the issues within our writers' community with which we are not satisfied. I also believe that as paying, contributing members, we have a right to speak out and strive to effect improvements on behalf of everyone. As far as the costs and logistics are concerned, I'm relatively clueless, but I'd be happy to let the more business-minded folks hash out those figures.
My number one complaint about "reviewing standards" on this site, as you know, has been the phenomenon of the fly-by "wham, bam, thank you for $1.22, even though I didn't read your post or put any effort into responding to it," which you so very aptly addressed in your essay as follows:
"Most of us give a proper effort when we review. The ones that do not should be singled out and stopped."
As the whole system currently stands, it lends itself to that less-than-stellar practice, which can be demoralizing and hurtful to other writers, especially when they make a point to be conscientious about the effort they put forth on behalf of others' posts and they work damned hard on crafting their own work, only to have a bunch of people take advantage when they spend money to promote their work, or ignore them off the planet when they don't. Truthfully, I don't care if I only receive 6 or 8 quality reviews on a poem, regardless of how much "incentive" I offer by promoting. But this is how it invariably goes: if I promote a poem, a bunch of pariahs who otherwise would not bother with any kind of response at all come at me with the two-lined "fake" feedback as if they're doing me a favor (when it is abundantly obvious that they are blowing through just to collect the member cents) -- when truly, all I had wanted was to offer some small "reward" for those few whom I know I can count on for investing their energy in a long and/or complex piece (and also in the hope that the extra visibility might help connect me with more like-minded others out there). But lately, it seems that promoting of my work in any amount always backfires for me. It feels like feeding my heart and soul to the wolves!
In Brooke's response to your essay, she reiterates the same message about "reviewing quality" that she argued recently in another discussion -- basically, that it would be impossible to monitor reviewing practices even though FanStory philosophically frowns upon "cut and paste" reviews, because it is cost-prohibitive to hire an individual or even a committee to enforce the standards it stipulates. Blah, blah, blah... Okay, this is certainly true to an extent, but what about, say, having a committee monitor the reviews of the top 30 or 40 ranked reviewers? The reason I put this idea forward, is because those who are the highest ranked reviewers are often the ones who are perpetrating the "fly-by." They are likewise often top-ranked authors, which would only lead me to presume that they are capable of exercising a rudimentary level of cognition and stringing together a series of words into sentences... Ergo -- it is unacceptable and blatantly exploitative behavior on the parts of those individuals to be getting away with this "game" at the expense of others. Brooke, our number one ranked reviewer and poet, who I'm sure works her tail off to maintain those rankings, has the whole reviewing thing down to a science. She packs a lot of detailed, specific feedback into a small package. No, she does not write dissertations on others' work, but she succinctly and thoroughly covers all the "bases," which I'm sure she is capable of achieving relatively quickly (I can't do that and don't necessarily care to -- but I don't have a problem with her obvious tenacity and skill... More power to her!). Most importantly, though, when we receive a review from Brooke, it is clear that she has actually read our work and that she is making an attempt to offer constructive feedback that writers can potentially employ to improve their writing. Brooke writes reviews. She deserves the "recognition" the site affords her for doing so, but other "top-ranked reviewers" don't write reviews, even though logic would dictate that they'd be capable of doing so if they gave a crap, all money and accolades aside. It doesn't take a genius to tell the difference. Hell, I'm sure that I could evaluate 100 "reviews" written by the top 30 ranked reviewers in a given day and be able to evaluate whether or not they adhere to the site's stipulated standards in about the same amount of time that it usually takes me to write one "review" (granted, mine are often dissertations, and I don't expect anyone else to do what I do!). If FanStory would be willing to appoint a "quality control" committee to monitor the the top-ranked reviewers' practices, I'd bet that enough people would be willing to VOLUNTEER their time on a limited and/or rotating basis in order to make it a viable way to enforce the site's reviewing guidelines...? At least, it could make a dent in the problem and perhaps encourage reviewers, in general, to consider accountability to be a factor (because money as the sole incentive does not serve this purpose).
Finally, I want to respond to your point about prose writing not ever gaining as much exposure or receiving as much feedback as poetry. I do agree with this summation. It is true that the 5-7-5s promoted to the front page receive much, much more feedback than any 1500 word or more prose piece, and (being mostly a poet, myself) I can only imagine that receiving a percentage of "fly-by" responses for 2000 word stories might feel even worse to those authors than it does when it happens to me. As you know, I don't review a lot of prose on this site -- not necessarily because it "takes longer" (truly READING a poem, for instance, sometimes takes me several days), but because I choose to give my full attention to everything I do read and I've decided to concentrate on reviewing the same genre I most often write in. That being said, I will NEVER drop a "fly-by" on any writer or poet only to "get" the member dollars. I won't review a haiku just because it is promoted to the home page. If I don't have anything constructive to say about a given post, I don't review it, regardless of how much it pays. I wonder if the main problem for prose writers is not so much that relatively fewer people read prose (and, I suspect, the same principle applies to poets who write more complex pieces than minimalist forms that are more prolific on FS...), but rather that it is relatively more obvious (and more disheartening!) when they receive the royal "fly-by" treatment? I still think that the root of the problem as a whole is that the current "incentive" system lends itself to abuse. It may be a profitable "business model," but, regardless, the owners/admins ("Tom") should take pains to ensure that this business can truly be deemed "reputable" in the public eye (or at least not make pretenses about being a reputable writing site if upholding that reputation is not a primary goal of this business!).
Perhaps, by engaging in forum/profile discussions and "speaking out" against unjust practices, as it is our right and prerogative to do, while continuing to exemplify the practices that we would promote, our influence will eventually serve to effect some change? It is certainly worth it to continue to try, even when others don't agree or would shut our efforts down. Your passionate voice and your willingness to take on a proactive leadership role are nothing short of inspiring, Mikey Cahill. Thank you!
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Nosha17
I agree, something must be done. I am only a poet, so maybe I don't have as much grievance as a prose writer, but there is one area I feel peeved about. That is when someone writes a haiku and receives 100 reviews, maybe because it offers a dollar and x amount of points. I find it unfair for a writer of a proper length poem-mine are usually up to ten stanzas long or longer(sometimes only 5, but still take many hours to write and perfect)to receive the same number of points towards ranking as the haiku writer (probably took about 10 minutes maximum to write). Also, the featured section placement can be bought (I can't afford to because I am poor, so I review plenty, so more people can read my work). Maybe some poorer people don't have the time to review as much, so their poems/stories languish unread at 20c, and they are often far superior to some of the featured ones I have found. I tend to review a large portion of the 20 cent paying poems and 50 cent paying stories to give them a chance. I actually, unless they are good and I really like them, tend to avoid the blown up poems and stories with high dollar earnings, like the plague!
Reference the main argument of your article on the subject of longer stories or chapters which don't get read because reviewers can't be bothered to read longer stuff, I do sympathise with those writers. I review a lot of prose, but it tends to be the short stories or the books I have followed from the start. I cannot pick up a book half way through, there isn't time and I would be lost reading it. There has to be more money offered to the reviewer of a longer work, has to be an incentive. It is great that in your busy life you found time to take care of this pressing situation and hope something gets done. Good luck to us all. Faye
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I agree, something must be done. I am only a poet, so maybe I don't have as much grievance as a prose writer, but there is one area I feel peeved about. That is when someone writes a haiku and receives 100 reviews, maybe because it offers a dollar and x amount of points. I find it unfair for a writer of a proper length poem-mine are usually up to ten stanzas long or longer(sometimes only 5, but still take many hours to write and perfect)to receive the same number of points towards ranking as the haiku writer (probably took about 10 minutes maximum to write). Also, the featured section placement can be bought (I can't afford to because I am poor, so I review plenty, so more people can read my work). Maybe some poorer people don't have the time to review as much, so their poems/stories languish unread at 20c, and they are often far superior to some of the featured ones I have found. I tend to review a large portion of the 20 cent paying poems and 50 cent paying stories to give them a chance. I actually, unless they are good and I really like them, tend to avoid the blown up poems and stories with high dollar earnings, like the plague!
Reference the main argument of your article on the subject of longer stories or chapters which don't get read because reviewers can't be bothered to read longer stuff, I do sympathise with those writers. I review a lot of prose, but it tends to be the short stories or the books I have followed from the start. I cannot pick up a book half way through, there isn't time and I would be lost reading it. There has to be more money offered to the reviewer of a longer work, has to be an incentive. It is great that in your busy life you found time to take care of this pressing situation and hope something gets done. Good luck to us all. Faye
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from sibhus
Excellent ideas, I would be willing to go along with these changes. I'm not at all suprised at the response. Over the years I have seen many people leave the site, because of the lack of response to their postings, and most of the time it's due the low Fan Bucks they are offer for the prose. It's been a pretty common complaint for years, why read a 2000 word story for two cents when you can read a four line poem for a dollar and a half. The whole not reading a story because it's longer than a thousand words is a lot of crap. If you check around most writing contests require a stoy to at least four thousand words.
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Excellent ideas, I would be willing to go along with these changes. I'm not at all suprised at the response. Over the years I have seen many people leave the site, because of the lack of response to their postings, and most of the time it's due the low Fan Bucks they are offer for the prose. It's been a pretty common complaint for years, why read a 2000 word story for two cents when you can read a four line poem for a dollar and a half. The whole not reading a story because it's longer than a thousand words is a lot of crap. If you check around most writing contests require a stoy to at least four thousand words.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Kingsland
I found a flaw in your thinking here. You write this article as if poetry and prose were in the same ranking, they are not. So you are raked against other prose writers. So I do not see any inequities there. It is the same for all prose writers. If you want more reviews, be a better writer. Write better prose and you'll get more reviews. It is no different in the poetry writing. The same is true there as well. So in ending this review I will say this. This is a well written article that I disagree with what you have put forward here... John
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I found a flaw in your thinking here. You write this article as if poetry and prose were in the same ranking, they are not. So you are raked against other prose writers. So I do not see any inequities there. It is the same for all prose writers. If you want more reviews, be a better writer. Write better prose and you'll get more reviews. It is no different in the poetry writing. The same is true there as well. So in ending this review I will say this. This is a well written article that I disagree with what you have put forward here... John
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
