Let's Fix It: Attention Tom
Follow up article to reviews for prose.44 total reviews
Comment from Dean Kuch
"It also came to my attention that there is little incentive or reward for the reviewer that makes the extra effort to provide true quality feedback and input." -- Why, sure there is, Mikey. Just ask rama devi, she's made a fortune out of doing it, LOL...
I've had reviewers that flat out tell me, Sorry, I saw your post come through my inbox. And while it is highly promoted, I respectfully decline as I only review poetry. Respectfully...So & So Well So & So. I respectfully reserve the right to tell you that you're an ass, and I'd rather you not told me anything at all. Now I will think twice about reviewing anything you write from here on out. Such indignant, blatant stupidity!
I'm one of those people who enjoy prose far more than poetry, although I write much more of the latter because no one will review the stories. Or, very few as compared to my poetry, anyway. And if you post a story simultaneously with a poem, you have just sealed that story's death warrant as no one will read it, opting for the poem instead because of its brevity. Like you stated, why read a 1,500 word story for 1.00 in funny money when you can read a poem paying .98 cents? Economy and time management. It's what makes the world go 'round...
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"It also came to my attention that there is little incentive or reward for the reviewer that makes the extra effort to provide true quality feedback and input." -- Why, sure there is, Mikey. Just ask rama devi, she's made a fortune out of doing it, LOL...
I've had reviewers that flat out tell me, Sorry, I saw your post come through my inbox. And while it is highly promoted, I respectfully decline as I only review poetry. Respectfully...So & So Well So & So. I respectfully reserve the right to tell you that you're an ass, and I'd rather you not told me anything at all. Now I will think twice about reviewing anything you write from here on out. Such indignant, blatant stupidity!
I'm one of those people who enjoy prose far more than poetry, although I write much more of the latter because no one will review the stories. Or, very few as compared to my poetry, anyway. And if you post a story simultaneously with a poem, you have just sealed that story's death warrant as no one will read it, opting for the poem instead because of its brevity. Like you stated, why read a 1,500 word story for 1.00 in funny money when you can read a poem paying .98 cents? Economy and time management. It's what makes the world go 'round...
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from nelliesellie
I love the work. We should treat this site like a business. We should pay for if our work is long. We should get paid more if we read a long work. I get paid the same for reading three line poems. I like your work well enough to follow the thirty chapters. There are many good writers that are unknown. We need a good reason to start reading and following them. Great work.
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I love the work. We should treat this site like a business. We should pay for if our work is long. We should get paid more if we read a long work. I get paid the same for reading three line poems. I like your work well enough to follow the thirty chapters. There are many good writers that are unknown. We need a good reason to start reading and following them. Great work.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Twilightspire
This is a well written essay. Very passionate, with a hint of a unique and humorous voice. I could easily tell this is a discussion you feel needs to be addressed and you did it with no spag that I could see.
Good work and good luck with your mission, but if I end up having to pay more to post a story...well, you get the gist. Lol. J/K
I all honesty, I applaud your efforts. You've been very vocal about this and you know my opinions on it, so I'll spare you the run around again.
I like that you put several points that I recognize myself in, about the *shiver* poetry and it would be nice to weed out some of the reviews that don't offer anything close to feedback.
In all graciousness, good luck. I know this is something that you are passionate about and I hope you get the changes you are looking for.
I'll see ya here either way. :D
-T.J.
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This is a well written essay. Very passionate, with a hint of a unique and humorous voice. I could easily tell this is a discussion you feel needs to be addressed and you did it with no spag that I could see.
Good work and good luck with your mission, but if I end up having to pay more to post a story...well, you get the gist. Lol. J/K
I all honesty, I applaud your efforts. You've been very vocal about this and you know my opinions on it, so I'll spare you the run around again.
I like that you put several points that I recognize myself in, about the *shiver* poetry and it would be nice to weed out some of the reviews that don't offer anything close to feedback.
In all graciousness, good luck. I know this is something that you are passionate about and I hope you get the changes you are looking for.
I'll see ya here either way. :D
-T.J.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from gypsycaravan
Michaelcahill, Magnificent essay to trigger some discussion via a forum on possible changes, equities, and/or opinions. I was thrilled to read your past essay that started this response from you. I will give it more thought and participate in the forum. I recently returned to FS after having left because of those same inequities you mention. I came back with the attitude that I would read only what I want, no matter the rewards, and review only those pieces. I felt I was learning more by reading other works than from the reviews on mine so promote my pieces very little. Occasionally, I receive a review that is most helpful, this may not be my most favorable review but the most helpful. I appreciate these very much. Everything has room for change. Very well-written.
Thank you for posting.
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Michaelcahill, Magnificent essay to trigger some discussion via a forum on possible changes, equities, and/or opinions. I was thrilled to read your past essay that started this response from you. I will give it more thought and participate in the forum. I recently returned to FS after having left because of those same inequities you mention. I came back with the attitude that I would read only what I want, no matter the rewards, and review only those pieces. I felt I was learning more by reading other works than from the reviews on mine so promote my pieces very little. Occasionally, I receive a review that is most helpful, this may not be my most favorable review but the most helpful. I appreciate these very much. Everything has room for change. Very well-written.
Thank you for posting.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from tbacha58
Hi Mike, first I am glad I heard from yo , as today I was going to post you a worried contact, having not seen you in a while.
As for your demands, I also think something must be done. You are so right Mike, I read all your mail, and found it extremely logical and in place.
Something else to discuss is, when the certificate of 9.95$ or whatever is expired, our poems, or stories, go back to 2.cents, so nobody reads them afterwards, and we don't have the possibility of having the same amount we invested before it expires , the certificates I think should go along with the poem even when expired, so we will continue having feed back from writers who either were away, or had no time to read our poems or stories before. When the poems or stories still have the same certificates, many many writers will read them while passing by.
Excellent demands Mike. I am so happy you are fine. Love to both of you. xoxo Terry xoxo
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Hi Mike, first I am glad I heard from yo , as today I was going to post you a worried contact, having not seen you in a while.
As for your demands, I also think something must be done. You are so right Mike, I read all your mail, and found it extremely logical and in place.
Something else to discuss is, when the certificate of 9.95$ or whatever is expired, our poems, or stories, go back to 2.cents, so nobody reads them afterwards, and we don't have the possibility of having the same amount we invested before it expires , the certificates I think should go along with the poem even when expired, so we will continue having feed back from writers who either were away, or had no time to read our poems or stories before. When the poems or stories still have the same certificates, many many writers will read them while passing by.
Excellent demands Mike. I am so happy you are fine. Love to both of you. xoxo Terry xoxo
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from rama devi
Thanks for voicing this and for your enthusiasm to improve our FS site and to spur other members to share the torch-carrying for improving reviewing standards and payouts, especially for prose. I like you ideas and will participate in the forum when time allows. This is well-articulated and your passion for the subject shines through and inspires.
Did not notice any nits or spags or issues to fix...but I am also fatigued today and mind is not so sharp.
The title is good--drew me in. Hope Tom reads it. You might send him a mail asking him to.
Best Smiles,
rd
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Thanks for voicing this and for your enthusiasm to improve our FS site and to spur other members to share the torch-carrying for improving reviewing standards and payouts, especially for prose. I like you ideas and will participate in the forum when time allows. This is well-articulated and your passion for the subject shines through and inspires.
Did not notice any nits or spags or issues to fix...but I am also fatigued today and mind is not so sharp.
The title is good--drew me in. Hope Tom reads it. You might send him a mail asking him to.
Best Smiles,
rd
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Spiritual Echo
As you well know, the reason you received those 33 reviews before you promoted your previous essay, was entirely due to fan notification. You have earned the attention of many followers and I'd wager most of them would read your posts regardless of the pay-out.
Promotion exposes our work to members who are not on our fan list and gives us opportunity to attract more followers.
Here's an idea that hasn't been tabled. Maybe we should focus in on our fans instead. Leave the system the way it is, but if you are a 'fan' you automatically get a 'bonus.' Of course this could be an extra charge to the writer, added as a feature to any post, as the writer chooses. It would encourage members to sign up as fans and become eligible for the bonus dollars.
Here's why I don't like your increase in costs as currently stated. If I wanted to pay $20 to get feedback or extend the potential of my story, I'd likely enter it in a contest at Writer's Digest or some other site offering a real cash pay-out that charges a reading fee. I have more potential for the story in that venue than here.
My reasons for supporting the FS site are fairly simple. It's an excellent inspirational site that fosters writing disciple. The rewards are initial feedback to see how the story is received and a host of unpaid editors that are invested in my success. But the success doesn't really happen here. This is a springboard to gain confidence and develop stories with legs that can walk down a path where there might be a more realistic opportunity for payback.
Be wary that many editors consider FS a vanity site. While we have serious writers here, such as yourself, who put in serious effort, we also have hobbyists.
One could argue that its not real money unless we swipe our Am-Ex card. Yeah, well then the rewards aren't real either, but on more than one occasion I've pulled that card out. Plus, I'm not willing to read twenty reviews to promote one story. I review often and thoroughly but by choice, not necessity.
By the way, this was exceptionally well written. Perfect paragraph structure and flow of logical thought. And--hot damn--no spag that I could see.
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As you well know, the reason you received those 33 reviews before you promoted your previous essay, was entirely due to fan notification. You have earned the attention of many followers and I'd wager most of them would read your posts regardless of the pay-out.
Promotion exposes our work to members who are not on our fan list and gives us opportunity to attract more followers.
Here's an idea that hasn't been tabled. Maybe we should focus in on our fans instead. Leave the system the way it is, but if you are a 'fan' you automatically get a 'bonus.' Of course this could be an extra charge to the writer, added as a feature to any post, as the writer chooses. It would encourage members to sign up as fans and become eligible for the bonus dollars.
Here's why I don't like your increase in costs as currently stated. If I wanted to pay $20 to get feedback or extend the potential of my story, I'd likely enter it in a contest at Writer's Digest or some other site offering a real cash pay-out that charges a reading fee. I have more potential for the story in that venue than here.
My reasons for supporting the FS site are fairly simple. It's an excellent inspirational site that fosters writing disciple. The rewards are initial feedback to see how the story is received and a host of unpaid editors that are invested in my success. But the success doesn't really happen here. This is a springboard to gain confidence and develop stories with legs that can walk down a path where there might be a more realistic opportunity for payback.
Be wary that many editors consider FS a vanity site. While we have serious writers here, such as yourself, who put in serious effort, we also have hobbyists.
One could argue that its not real money unless we swipe our Am-Ex card. Yeah, well then the rewards aren't real either, but on more than one occasion I've pulled that card out. Plus, I'm not willing to read twenty reviews to promote one story. I review often and thoroughly but by choice, not necessity.
By the way, this was exceptionally well written. Perfect paragraph structure and flow of logical thought. And--hot damn--no spag that I could see.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from adewpearl
I don't understand what a higher standard for reviewing means and how it can be monitored? There is already a rule against cut and paste reviews. So, are you talking about an actual assessment of the quality of a review? Who is going to be entrusted with judging this quality? And who is going to pay that person for spending all day reading and judging reviews?
You can't pay a person employed to judge reviews with fake site money. I think it would be lovely if everyone decided to give thorough, useful reviews, but I just don't see what you're suggesting that is going to force people to do it.
Brooke
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I don't understand what a higher standard for reviewing means and how it can be monitored? There is already a rule against cut and paste reviews. So, are you talking about an actual assessment of the quality of a review? Who is going to be entrusted with judging this quality? And who is going to pay that person for spending all day reading and judging reviews?
You can't pay a person employed to judge reviews with fake site money. I think it would be lovely if everyone decided to give thorough, useful reviews, but I just don't see what you're suggesting that is going to force people to do it.
Brooke
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Taffspride
So very glad you posted this on a day when I had sixes left to award.
An extremely well written essay Mikey. You make some extremely good suggestions.
I like the idea of being able to read an entire book. I have just re-started reviewing prose, and need to go back to read many works from the beginning. (Your's being one of those) However I find it very disconcerting. Some-how one loses the thread going from chapter to chapter, instead of turning a page.
Apart from all of your great suggestions, you have an extremely well written and well thought out essay here.
Thank you, Hopefully the site owners will take at least some of these and run with them.
Iechyd da
Ann
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So very glad you posted this on a day when I had sixes left to award.
An extremely well written essay Mikey. You make some extremely good suggestions.
I like the idea of being able to read an entire book. I have just re-started reviewing prose, and need to go back to read many works from the beginning. (Your's being one of those) However I find it very disconcerting. Some-how one loses the thread going from chapter to chapter, instead of turning a page.
Apart from all of your great suggestions, you have an extremely well written and well thought out essay here.
Thank you, Hopefully the site owners will take at least some of these and run with them.
Iechyd da
Ann
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
Comment from Michaelk
I agree there needs to be change. However as you said there is a fear of not being qualified to give a review. I know when I review a piece it is from an emotional standpoint. I'm going to point out basic spag if I see it, but grammar errors, I don't feel qualified. I feel like I would be laughed off the site by the grammar Nazis. (sorry, that's just the way some people are) So now you want to force readers give a longer review, increasing their sense of inferiority? Would I love to have longer reviews on my book chapters? Hell yes, but not at gunpoint. Not, 'You wrote a ninety-seven word review, that's not long enough, write more.'
I also think you're going the wrong direction financially. Charge less for poetry and make poetry rewards lower instead of increasing the cost of novel chapters. These things are already way too expensive. And member cent pumps are very frustrating. How can you buy something that gives you less value the more you buy it? You of all people, Mikey, know how much time it takes to review as it is just to get very little reward. It takes forever to review enough just to get a basic certificate to post your own work, then there's replies, it leaves you with very little time for writing, which should be the first priority.
I understand the reviews are to help other writers, and I appreciate reviewers who point out mistakes so I can correct them, I also try to point out helpful hints (sometimes I go a little overboard) but charging more is going to lead down a bad path. People aren't going to want to pay more and they will stop posting. Once people stop posting, there won't be as much to review and it will be even harder to earn that extra expensive certificate. Once people see they are getting less reviews, they will get frustrated and quit the site altogether.
My opinion is this, decrease don't increase when it comes to cost. Increase don't decrease went it comes to value.
reply by the author on 03-Aug-2014
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I agree there needs to be change. However as you said there is a fear of not being qualified to give a review. I know when I review a piece it is from an emotional standpoint. I'm going to point out basic spag if I see it, but grammar errors, I don't feel qualified. I feel like I would be laughed off the site by the grammar Nazis. (sorry, that's just the way some people are) So now you want to force readers give a longer review, increasing their sense of inferiority? Would I love to have longer reviews on my book chapters? Hell yes, but not at gunpoint. Not, 'You wrote a ninety-seven word review, that's not long enough, write more.'
I also think you're going the wrong direction financially. Charge less for poetry and make poetry rewards lower instead of increasing the cost of novel chapters. These things are already way too expensive. And member cent pumps are very frustrating. How can you buy something that gives you less value the more you buy it? You of all people, Mikey, know how much time it takes to review as it is just to get very little reward. It takes forever to review enough just to get a basic certificate to post your own work, then there's replies, it leaves you with very little time for writing, which should be the first priority.
I understand the reviews are to help other writers, and I appreciate reviewers who point out mistakes so I can correct them, I also try to point out helpful hints (sometimes I go a little overboard) but charging more is going to lead down a bad path. People aren't going to want to pay more and they will stop posting. Once people stop posting, there won't be as much to review and it will be even harder to earn that extra expensive certificate. Once people see they are getting less reviews, they will get frustrated and quit the site altogether.
My opinion is this, decrease don't increase when it comes to cost. Increase don't decrease went it comes to value.
Comment Written 03-Aug-2014
reply by the author on 03-Aug-2014
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Good points. I'm in the same boat when it comes to reviewing. Totally unqualified as far as grammar and SPAG. You have a strong point and that may be the way to go. I'm pretty much throwing out somewhat a consensus as a jumping off point. You are not alone, and you may be speaking for the majority. I was offering the pay more as an option considering how much a pump is. It's cheaper to pay 16.95 to get it to a dollar than it is to start at 52 cents and then jump it up at 2.95 a pop. But, that is all something to discuss. I would like to see some kind of remedy for copy and paste reviews and worthless reviews where the person didn't even read the piece. I don't mind a simple, "Hey, I read your story and I liked it." That's fine with me. Beats a bunch of nonsense from someone that didn't read it at all. The real frustration is for writers that aren't established posting their piece getting their 9.95 cert. and getting three or four reviews. That is the norm. Hell, I promoted my horror story for Dean's contest to the front page and only got 12 reviews cause it was too long. Frustrating. But, I can write a haiku in about two minutes and get thirty reviews with a 32 cent payoff anytime. It's off kilter. I'm not really in a bad position personally. I have a decent following. My book gets like a dozen or so reviews. I prose piece if it isn't too long can get fifteen to even thirty depending. I agree with your conclusion, but I don't see how to do that yet. But, well keep talking about it till we do. Great input. Power to the people. Viva la raza. No more bears! mikey
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You go for it, Mikey. Where is your forum thread? I'll chime in.
